The solar part is something that gets surprisingly little attention in these discussions. The purchase price is only one part of the economics of a car. Once someone can generate part of their own electricity, the energy economics of an EV become fundamentally different from an ICE vehicle because the owner can actually produce some of the vehicle's fuel at home. Obviously that doesn't work for everyone. You need the right home, charging access, enough solar generation and suitable driving patterns. But that's another reason I think competition matters. Don't just compare sticker prices. Compare purchase price, energy cost, maintenance, depreciation and actual real-world use. Then let consumers decide which technology works for them.

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It's proven that EVs are far better when it comes to emissions over their lifetime. They're a bit worse when it comes to environmental impact directly after manufacturing but ICE cars need oil/gas processing which isn't exactly environmentally friendly either. So they actually are better for the environment if you apply the same standards to ICE cars.

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One thing I think is missing from this discussion is that Brazil has already been through an earlier wave of Chinese automakers, and it shows that being Chinese, having lower manufacturing costs or offering more equipment does not automatically guarantee success. Chery entered Brazil in 2009, long before the current EV boom. Its first attempt was not particularly successful. The cars could offer a lot of equipment for the money, but the products, powertrains, dealer experience and overall strategy were not yet sufficiently adapted to Brazilian conditions and consumer expectations. Several early models disappeared. But Chery stayed. It built a factory, accumulated experience and eventually partnered with CAOA, a Brazilian automotive group with decades of experience in the local industry. CAOA had previously built its business through Ford dealerships, imported Hyundai vehicles and eventually manufactured Hyundai vehicles in Brazil. The result is that today's CAOA Chery is almost unrecognizable compared with the Chery that entered Brazil more than 15 years ago. And now CAOA is doing something similar with Changan. Changan is a separate Chinese automaker, but CAOA is using its Brazilian industrial and commercial infrastructure to manufacture and sell Changan products here as CAOA Changan. That is important because this competition is no longer limited to cheap imported EVs. Chinese-designed ICE, mild-hybrid, hybrid and plug-in hybrid vehicles are increasingly competing with traditional manufacturers too. JAC is a useful counterexample because its history went almost in the opposite direction. JAC entered Brazil in 2011 with a huge marketing campaign, quickly established a large dealer network and initially sold quite well. It promised Brazilian manufacturing, but that passenger-car factory never materialized. Over time its light-vehicle operation shrank dramatically and most of that original dealer footprint disappeared. So Brazil has already demonstrated something important: Chinese origin alone doesn't guarantee success. Chery initially struggled, stayed, learned, localized and found a strong Brazilian industrial partner. JAC had a much stronger initial launch but failed to establish the same industrial footprint and eventually became a much smaller player. Now we're watching a much larger second wave. BYD took over Ford's former industrial complex in Camaçari. GWM took over Mercedes-Benz's former factory in Iracemápolis. Renault and Geely are expanding their industrial relationship. GM itself is assembling Chinese-developed Chevrolet EVs in Ceará through products originating from its Chinese ecosystem with SAIC and Wuling. Toyota and BYD have a 50/50 EV R&D joint venture. Tesla complicates the story even further. Tesla is one of America's biggest automotive technology success stories, but its battery supply chain has always been international. Panasonic was fundamental to its early scale, while its later battery sourcing expanded to suppliers including LG Energy Solution and CATL. So the modern auto industry is already much more interconnected than “Chinese technology vs American technology” suggests. And this is why I find the comparison with Japanese and Korean automakers so interesting. Foreign manufacturers don't necessarily remain importers forever. They enter a market. Sometimes they fail. Sometimes they learn. They change products, establish dealerships, find local suppliers, partner with domestic companies, hire local engineers and workers, and eventually manufacture locally. Brazil watched Japanese and Korean companies go through versions of that process. Now we're watching Chinese companies do it. And localization gives us a much better experiment for the question this thread started with. If BYD, GWM, Changan or another Chinese manufacturer loses most of its price advantage after producing in Brazil, Europe or eventually the US with local workers and local regulations, then Chinese wages, subsidies and domestic production conditions were clearly responsible for a large part of that advantage. But if a significant advantage survives localization, then wages cannot be the whole explanation. Battery costs, vertical integration, platform architecture, supplier organization, procurement, automation, manufacturing scale, development cycles and margins all become part of the answer. That's why I don't think the most interesting experiment is simply importing millions of Chinese cars into the US. Make them manufacture there. Make them employ American workers. Make them comply with American safety, labor and environmental rules. Then compare the products. Brazil is increasingly doing exactly that experiment with Brazilian workers. And after watching what happened with Chery and JAC over the last 15+ years, I wouldn't assume the result in advance. Localization can expose weaknesses just as easily as it can expose advantages.

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There is another part of this discussion that makes the whole “Chinese auto industry vs American auto industry” framing much less clean than it sounds. Tesla itself is a good example. Tesla is American, but its battery supply chain has never been purely American. Panasonic was crucial to Tesla’s early scale, and Tesla later diversified its battery sourcing to companies including LG Energy Solution and CATL. So even the most successful American pure-EV manufacturer was built around a global, heavily Asian battery supply chain. Brazil makes this even more interesting because we are watching several versions of this industrial integration happen at the same time. BYD took over Ford’s former industrial complex in Camaçari and is progressively localizing production. GWM took over Mercedes-Benz’s former factory in Iracemápolis. Renault and Geely are expanding their industrial relationship in Brazil. GM itself is now assembling Chinese-developed Chevrolet EVs in Ceará. The Spark EUV and Captiva EV come from GM’s Chinese industrial ecosystem with SAIC and Wuling and are being assembled locally. Toyota and BYD have a 50/50 EV R&D joint venture. Nissan has had a major industrial relationship with Dongfeng in China for decades. At some point, asking whether a technology is simply “Chinese” or “Western” stops having an easy answer. And Brazil gives us another interesting experiment: range. If you look only at Brazilian homologation figures, some EVs can look surprisingly short-legged. Cars with batteries in the 50-60 kWh range can receive official Inmetro/PBEV range figures around 300 km. But the Brazilian number is deliberately conservative. Inmetro does not simply publish the raw laboratory result. Adjustment factors are applied to produce a more conservative real-world reference. The problem is that a lot of automotive discussion here then treats that number almost as the maximum distance the EV can realistically travel. Owner experience often looks very different. We now have EV owners driving these cars across Brazil, including mountainous areas and routes that climb from the coast onto the plateau. There are owners and independent tests substantially exceeding the official Inmetro range, and under favorable conditions some results get much closer to WLTP. Larger-battery EVs can exceed 400 km in real use even when their Brazilian homologated number looks much less impressive. Obviously that does not mean WLTP is guaranteed real-world range. Drive at 120 km/h, climb continuously, add headwind, temperature changes or heavy HVAC use and consumption changes dramatically. But this exposes an interesting asymmetry in how cars are discussed here. When a small 1.0-liter ICE car achieves an exceptionally good km/l result, automotive enthusiasts and media are perfectly happy to show what the car can achieve under favorable real-world conditions. With EVs, I often see the opposite. The conservative Inmetro figure gets repeated as the defining range of the vehicle, while owner consumption and independent road results receive much less attention. A much better way to discuss EV range is to show the homologation numbers and then show actual energy consumption. If an EV does 12, 15, 18 or 22 kWh/100 km, anyone can understand what a 40, 60 or 90 kWh battery means under different conditions. That's much more informative than saying “this is a 300 km car” because one homologation system printed 300 km on the label. And all of this comes back to the original Detroit question. Brazil is becoming a useful real-world laboratory because Chinese manufacturers are no longer simply shipping Chinese-built cars here. They are buying former Western factories, hiring Brazilian workers and progressively localizing production. At the same time, established American, European and Japanese manufacturers are increasingly using Chinese partners, platforms, batteries, engineering or complete vehicles. Europe is moving in a similar direction as Chinese manufacturers localize more production there. That gives us an opportunity to separate two things that are constantly mixed together in this discussion. If Chinese manufacturers lose most of their price advantage when they manufacture in Brazil, Europe or eventually the US with local workers, then Chinese wages, subsidies and domestic production conditions were clearly doing much of the work. But if a substantial advantage survives localization, then wages cannot be the entire explanation. Battery costs, vertical integration, EV-specific platforms, supplier organization, procurement, manufacturing scale, automation, development cycles and margins all have to enter the discussion. That's why I would actually find an American-built Chinese EV much more interesting than another imported Chinese EV. Require American production. American wages. American safety and environmental standards. Apply the same rules to everyone. Then compare the products. If an American-built BYD ends up costing roughly the same as an equivalent American-built GM or Ford, we learn something important about where the original Chinese cost advantage came from. But if it can still compete aggressively on price, equipment and efficiency while paying American production costs, then tariffs didn't answer the underlying competitiveness question. They only delayed the experiment.

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I think several comments here are mixing two separate questions. Yes, China has lower manufacturing wages, industrial subsidies matter, and the US has legitimate reasons to care about trade rules. I'm not arguing that Chinese manufacturers should simply get unrestricted access to the American market. What I'm questioning is the idea that cheap labor alone explains why Chinese cars are cheaper, and that keeping them out therefore solves Detroit's competitiveness problem. Brazil is becoming a useful real-world test. GM, Volkswagen, Fiat and Toyota have been manufacturing here for decades. They already have factories, established suppliers, huge dealer networks, brand recognition and enormous scale. Chinese manufacturers entered with almost none of those advantages. Their cars initially had to be shipped across the ocean, pay import duties and Brazilian taxes, establish distribution and dealerships from scratch, and compete against locally produced ICE cars. Yet they were still able to price BEVs and PHEVs directly against conventional ICE vehicles. And now Chinese manufacturers are increasingly localizing production in Brazil. That makes the labor argument even more interesting, because progressively more of the production cost is Brazilian rather than Chinese. So where does the remaining price competitiveness come from? That's the part I think deserves more attention: vertical integration, battery costs, dedicated EV platforms, fewer components, supplier structure, manufacturing efficiency, scale, software/electronics integration and possibly lower margins while entering a new market. It doesn't mean subsidies and Chinese labor costs are irrelevant. It means they probably aren't the entire explanation. There's also an interesting counterargument several people here have raised: protecting Detroit's highly profitable US market could give GM and Ford the cash and time they need to become more competitive elsewhere. That could work. But then the important question is what they do with that protection. GM can make excellent money selling large pickups and SUVs in the US while simultaneously competing with BYD, GWM and Geely in places like Brazil. If those American profits finance better platforms, lower production costs and more competitive electrified cars globally, then the protected home market is buying useful time. If instead protection allows Detroit to remain increasingly dependent on high-margin trucks and SUVs while competitors gain scale and manufacturing experience in the rest of the world, then protection may simply be hiding the competitiveness problem. That's why I'd actually like to see Chinese manufacturers subjected to the hardest possible version of this test in the US. Don't give them unrestricted imports. Require local production. Require American wages, American safety standards and American regulations. Then let an American-built BYD compete against an American-built GM or Ford. If the price advantage largely disappears, then labor, subsidies and imports really were doing much of the work. But if a locally produced Chinese EV can still compete on price with a locally produced American ICE vehicle or EV, then Detroit has a manufacturing-cost problem that tariffs alone aren't going to solve.

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I think the question is posed incorrectly. Yes, the US car manufacturers are protected from Chinese imports, but they are also currently protected from making the transfer from ICE to EV vehicles, and the US is falling behind and will be left behind. We may get to drive ICE vehicles for another 20 or 30 years, but eventually there will be a tipping point in the global market where ICE vehicles are not competitive. That my have already happened in China. When ypu read about the collapse of the Chinese auto market, that is only for ICE vehicles. EVs in China continue to expand, and China has invested in their infrastructure. They are investing in Africa's EV infrastructure. Europe has already gone that route. Only the US has doubled down on ICE vehicles. That protects US manufacturing for now, but when that dam brakes they will be in big trouble.

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Ya I’ve read up on this and it’s pretty terrifying. It’s why I get a little bothered by the whole “EV good, ICE bad” talking point of Reddit. EVs are great in terms of pollution from the car once made. But the process to make them is currently not a great proposition environmentally or human rights wise… doesn’t mean we shouldn’t push for EVs we just need to be aggressive in making their production not a disaster for the earth and the people involved in production.

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I left the following comment on your "Crossed $1m on Robinhood" post \~ 2 months ago: https://preview.redd.it/j03mz90of4qh1.png?width=1032&format=png&auto=webp&s=c9bba3a29c80134ada6c6123cc0ed235721f7370 And I'm so fuckin happy for you I'm going to grab myself a thick ribeye on my way home, grill it to perfection, crack open an ice cold beer (I drink about 3x/year) and raise my glass to your success! As I previously stated so eloquently, Fuck em - congratulations!

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If you bought AMD shares or calls today please for the love of ice cream buy some puts to protect your investment

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pretty funny that it took almost no convincing for trump to ice out saudi arabia

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